I was contacted by the Senior Pastor of Fairview Baptist Church. I have decided to publish this discussion because I think it will give an important lesson to the Christians who are constantly rude and hateful when wanting to deliver their message to the Muslim people. The discussion has briefly spoken of the importance of good manners when speaking to people of other faiths, the concept of tolerating other faiths, lying when doing missionary work and the "importance" of being possessed by the Spirit of God in order to understand scripture.
Pastor Charles. M. Yarbrough = red
Mohammad Khan = black
I apologise in advance; the copy pasting of the messages have generated formatting issues.
You most certainly do not speak like a senior pastor. Your message is more like a child’s letter to a teacher I am not angered, I am used to these kind of messages and they make me laugh, so I thank you for making me laugh.
I have not exposed Ergun; he has exposed himself. This is not about choosing to believe in a Muslim or a Christian, if this is what you think it is, then you really have no idea what you are talking about and you seriously need to look into this matter properly.
Regarding the "apology", can you show me it? Did he apologise for lying not only about his upbringing but about Islam too? He literally makes up things that are not mentioned anywhere in our text and then teaches these things to people as though they are from Islam - but you wouldn't notice that would you? You don't care if he lies about other faiths as long your message gets delivered; even though this is clear hypocrisy because you guys are supposed to the people who should be making Christianity appealing to Muslims, this will never happen until unless you guys alter your methodology.
For example - look here how Ergun has been deceiving you all with regards to our beliefs: responding to ergun caner's resources
If you are person of logic and reasoning, after reading the above you will understand why and how Ergun has been lying to you about our faith. But I am guessing you will probably not read it. Do you not ever wonder why Ergun is so afraid to meet a Muslim in person? It’s nothing to do with him fearing his safety, we don’t want to touch him or harm in any way whatsoever. It’s due to the fact that he knows Muslims know that he is lying whenever he speaks.
E-mailing a Muslim and telling him so and so about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Islam is not exactly going make me want to become a Christian is it? It's going to make me dislike and distance myself from Christians like you; hence, you need to alter your methodology even if you believe that what you are saying is "true". Your "say it like it is" approach is not doing you any favours. If I were to send you a message saying your religion is false and so and so is XYZ and that you are leading people astray, and on top of that, my message were to be written in a rude manner as yours is, you would probably dislike Muslims more than you already do, would you not?
No need to respond, I have received so many messages like this (but not from serious pastors) that I roughly know what you are going to say anyway; those naive Christians who enjoy listening to the likes of Ergun all have the same mentality, you have demonstrated the same, well done :)
Congratulations for making the faith you adhere to seem evil and intolerant. Keep it up, people like you is what makes Islam even more appealing than it already is.
May God remove the sickness from your heart and may he guide you to the truth.
And likewise, we believe that your beliefs will not get you to heaven for you have associated partners to the one true creator. But do you see me shoving this down your throat like you are doing to me? You really need to reassess your interpersonal skills and improve on them because you seriously lack the ability to carry out a friendly discussion. See, in the Qur’an, God tells us:
"Invite all to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious."
This is a piece of advice that you could benefit from. You are not providing any logical reasons why one should believe what you believe. Screaming and shouting what you believe and writing rudely is not evidence, all you are doing is diverting people away from what you claim to be the truth. So I as Muslim, thank you for that; because the same way you disagree with Islam, I disagree with your beliefs; and for you to deliver your faith in this manner is only hindering the spread of falsehood which is good for the cause of Islam. Nobody listens to rude people like you and thus, the spread of the Christian faith is detrimented.
To me, it seems like you’re sitting there at your desk with a red face and steam coming out of your ears, or maybe it just seems that way via an e-mail?
Islam is very appealing, hence the 68,000 people who embrace it every 24 hours according to John Ankerberg. Islam teaches us good moral conduct in all aspects of life and it gives us the best way to deal with any situation we may encounter. In addition to the various benefits of Islam, it establishes the belief system which all the Prophets of God propagated – this is the worship of none other than that one true creator of the heavens and the earth with no partners in association. God is too great to be associated with anything or anyone else.
Here in England alone, the statistics of the 2001 census show that 64,000 white British people have embraced Islam. We know the small population of the UK so to have 64,000 white British reverts is actually an excellent number; not to mention that this statistic is near enough 10 years old and God alone knows how many more there will be in the survey next year.
Sources even show that 1.5million people in the USA have converted to Islam. Not to mention the vast number of people embracing Islam all over the world.
So I guess that from the above we can conclude that Islam doesn’t appeal to certain people, whilst it does appeal to others; and your accusation of Islam being a lie is merely an opinion which you are of course entitled to.
Just because the foundation of your beliefs differs from what we Muslims believe does not mean you have to run around saying that Islam is a lie, you just make yourself look silly. We Muslims have no problem with you preaching something other than Islam in a non-Muslim country, but I can assure you that the way you are doing it is not appealing even the slightest.
I am not here to have a religious discussion with you regarding the authenticity of our beliefs; rather, I just want to educate you in the importance of good manners when you plan to deliver your message to non-Christians. If you want us Muslims to listen to you, then you must deliver what you have to say kindly, fairly, honestly and softly. As I said before, nobody listens to people who adhere to the method you have demonstrated so well. I find it very hard to believe that you are a senior pastor, I cannot begin to imagine what the attendees of your church are like.
I do not know how old you are, but if I were to judge from your method of writing and rudeness, I would say between 17 and 22. The reason why I say this is because having engaged in many discussions via YouTube with Christians, the ones who speak in the same rude and hateful manner which you do are of this age region. This is quite shocking to me. Seeing as the footer of your email says that you are a senior pastor. I am guessing that all of the American youth have adopted the rudeness of the people who preach at their churches, i.e. you.
This is something you as a leader need to reassess if you want to deliver your "glad tidings".
You say that the bible says that the Gospel of Jesus Christ will cause offense. Please go back, read your messages so far and you will notice that the only words which would can cause offence to a Muslim are the intentional hateful insults at our beliefs and the last and final Prophet of God (peace be upon him). Nothing you said regarding your interpretation of the Gospel in accordance to what the modern version of the Bible teaches offended me. Your justification to the hateful words and method is just a joke and it doesn’t even apply to what you have written, you are misusing your bible.
With regards to your other comments, you do not have knowledge of the unseen to know that I am a blind follower. You do not know what I have and haven't researched before choosing to follow Islam. So your comments on these topics are just laughable. I am guessing you have not even read the Qur’an to investigate what “isn’t” appealing about it. I recommend you read it; maybe you will find that it is exact opposite of what you have been led to believe.
If you as intolerant as you have clearly professed in your message then you are not a good human being. You make it sound like I am sitting in your house forcing you to become a Muslim and trying to purposely send people to hell because of “wrong” beliefs; you really need to stop with your unnecessary words. Although your intolerance is clearly evident, me living here, thousands of miles away in London does not affect you in any way; so you are indirectly implying that can’t even tolerate a person of another faith who is sitting in a whole different country to you, where is the logic in that? Your heart is obviously not in a good state, seeing as it lacks the ability to tolerate me even though I am thousands of miles away.
I am glad you agree that Ergun Michael Caner is a liar. Hopefully you will also realise that he is lying about Islam and you will understand that using his resources against Muslims is 100% ineffective.
I am guessing you did not even open the link that I provided you with in my last message.
You say that on the Day of Judgment this e-mail will be pointed as to me being a recipient of the message. I say the same thing to you:
'Do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.'
And behold! GOD will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of GOD?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou was the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.”
Now you have been informed and have you no excuse on the Day of Judgment.
Please take this experience as a lesson on how you should and shouldn’t be speaking to Muslims. I think sometimes you forget that we are actually human beings.
You don't have to respond; as I said, I am not here for a religious discussion with you, but I hope you have learned a good lesson from this short interaction.
Why would anybody want to meet somebody like you when you have already revealed your true self in your first e-mail? I know you have apologised, but that does not mean that your hurtful and anger-seeking words have dissappeared. If I were to send you the kind of message you sent me, apologise and then start saying how I would be nice to you if I met you in person, you would think i’m a hypocrite.
There is no compulsion of relgion in Islam. The Qur’an clearly states “there is no compulsion in religion”. Despite this, the only way acceptable before the sight of God is total submission to his will, i.e. Islam. That doesn't make it compulsory, it is yet a choice, albeit a choice determining your eternal state.
Islamic law does not allow the propagation of a faith other than Islam. Why would Islamic law allow the propagation of another faith when we Muslims beleive that Islam is the only way? I’m sure you as a Christian can relate to this, because for you, Christianity is the only way and you would not want people teaching something other than what you call the correct way.
In contrast to your evident intolerance of which you are proud; Islamic law does tolerate and allow the practise of non-Islamic faiths, just not openly or with an aim to propagate it.
If your country of America chooses to allow the freedom of propagation of all religions, that is not my problem. Here in England, the law is outwardly the same; we have Christians, Muslims, Hindus and people of all faiths freely propagating and distributing all kinds of publications with no problems. America and England are not exactly strict Christian countries, they are both secular and boast of freedom of speech.
If you do not like the Islamic Law of not propagating another faith, then you must ask yourself the question, “Would I want something other than Christianity to be spreading and sending people to Hell?”.
If you have an issue of Muslims doing missionary work in your country, that is something you have to take up with your secular government.
In addtion to this, I do not think you have read your bible. The death penalty to apostates is not only present in the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament. Just because you choose to leave what your faith practises doesn’t mean that those who opt to uphold the law of God are wrong.
Here are some bible verses relating to the advocation of the death to apostates:
Deuteronomy 13:6-9 explains to not show pity to the one who offers you to worship other god’s and that he must certainly be put to death.
Deuteronomy 17:3-5 explains the stoning to death of those who worship something other than God.
2 Chronicles 15:13 explains that those who would not seek the Lord of Israel were to be put to death.
You will see in the context of Matthew 15:4 that Jesus (peace be upon him) commanded that anybody who abandons or goes against a commandment of God should be put to death.
You will see in the context of Romans 1:32 that those who after knowing God’s decree, engage in worshipping something other than God “deserve death”.
In fact, the book of Levitcus 20:27 says that those who indulge in fortune-telling or psychic activity, should be put to death.
Please do not use the argument of Jesus (pbuh) abrogating the Old Testament law by “loving your enemies” – this argument has been refuted many times. You and I both know that Jesus (pbuh) did not destroy the law of the Old Testament either.
You are in no position to be critical of the death penalty when your own scripture advocates it in an even more severe fashion. I will say it again, it is not my fault that the British and Americans have abandoned their scripture and have adopted secularism.
With regards to your statement of the twin towers, do you honestly believe that the high security of the United States allowed a large group of terrorists to infiltrate a highly secure American aircraft and then fly it into a building? If you honestly believe this fairy tale, then you are more gullible than I thought. Do you honestly believe the media who told you that both buildings were completely disintegrated and yet they managed to find a “slightly burned” passport of one of the highjackers amongst the rubble? Did you not bother to look into the matter? Did you know that the BBC news reporters were saying that the building which collapsed behind the area had come down even before it had actually come down? Wow, how did the news reporters know that the building had fallen even before it had fallen? Did you not see the interview of the American citizen who told news reporters that that bombs were planted in the actual building which caused the building to collapse? Did you not see how the interview of this individual was manipulated to make it seem as though he was saying that buildings collapsed due to the planes hitting the buildings as opposed to what he really experienced? Did you not look into the investigations carried out by experts in the field of aerospace engineering? Probably not, because people like you believe anything and everything as long as it discredits Islam and Muslims. Nonetheless, 34,000 people embraced Islam in the US after 9/11 because they bothered to pickup a Qur’an and read it for themselves to verify the things that were being said in the media about Islam and Muslims.
Please watch these 9/11 documentaries made by non-Muslims (so there is a slight chance of you listening):
Loose Change 9/11: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E3oIbO0AWE
9/11 Ripple Effect: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6847507648836588010#
I accept your apology and I hope you have learned a great lesson on the importance of good manners.
God says in the Qur’an - “Many of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) wish that if they could turn you away as disbelievers after you have believed, out of envy from their own selves, even after the truth (that Muhammad is Gods Messenger) has become manifest unto them. But forgive and overlook, till God brings His Command. Verily, God is Able to do all things”
Your intolerance is evidently greater than the intolerance you attribute to me.
The verse of the bible you quoted does not nullify the death penalty for apostates or those calling others to worship something other than the true God (i.e propagating another religion). Your comments about the Spirit of God residing in me to teach me the bible is rather peculiar. You are implying that the words of the modern bible are not what they are outwardly; rather it all has a hidden meaning which is only comprehendible if one were to be possessed by the Spirit of God. In contrast to what you have stated, the Qur’an can be picked up, read and understood by you, me and anybody using a translation in the language you understand best. Although it is obviously better in its original Arabic which has been so well preserved to this day; translations are yet very beneficial. I recommend you do this, for you will understand us better.
Ergun claims to have been under the influence of this Spirit, it did not do him any good.
Your statement of “To say that there is no complusion of belief in the Islamic faith would actually be quite funny except for the fact that your scriptures also teach you to lie to us infidels in order to try and trick us...” is 100% proof that you have not read the Qur’an in your life and that you have wasted your time listening to anti-Islamic preachers. Contrary to what your anti-Islamic hate preachers tell you, Islam does not permit us to lie in order to trick you to spread our faith. Taqiyyah is not what you have been taught, it is actually means “being sociable or affable without any hypocrisy or sycophancy, when it is necessary to be affable and say things that one does not believe, in cases where the Muslim fears for his life, but his heart is at peace and believes." Did you know that this Taqiyyah is included in your Old Testament too? Please go to Genesis 26:7-9 and you will see that it is perfectly demonstrated. But I am guessing I do not understand it correctly because I am not possessed by the “Spirit of God” as you describe being a prerequisite to understand the words of the bible.
On the other hand, the bible teaches deception in order to spread your message:
Look here for example, a clear example of justifying dishonest motives to spread Christianity - “Nothing matters except that, in one way or another, people are told the message about Christ, whether with honest or dishonest motives, and I’m happy about that. Yes, I will continue to be happy.” (Philippians 1:18) Unless you agree that Paul was not inspired when writing this, then your “word of God” justifies dishonest motives. If you say he was writing as himself and not God, then you cannot claim that your bible is 100% the word of God.
You will see here in the 1st book of Corinthians a perfect example of pretending to be like the ones to whom you are delivering the message in order to have them listen to what you have to say - “Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from Gods law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak.” (1st Corinthians 9:19-22) Once again, if you agree that Paul was inspired, then your “word of God” justifies deception.
The look in Romans 3:7, lying is justified because the so called truth of God has abounded unto its glory as a result of it.
See, what you as a Senior Pastor must do is ensure that when you speak of other faiths that the source of that knowledge is reliable and verified. Sitting there and absorbing the nonsense that people like Ergun and Emir Caner tell you is not helping your cause, it is hindering it. The funny thing about what you have stated is that the bible actually describes falsehood, deception and lying in order spread the faith and glorify God, but I am guessing you can only point your finger at Muslims even though we are not taught to do so. Look at this short article describing the only 3 occasions where a Muslim is allowed to be dishonest - http://muslim-responses.com/Islam_on_Lying/.
If you have seen the documentaries regarding the 9/11 then you must be well aware that the “evidence” suggesting that Muslims did it is nonsense and not proof; whilst the evidence suggesting that it was carried out by a corrupt leadership in order to manipulate the minds of the public is vast.
You are right; I do not want a religious discussion. But the ignorance you are demonstrating bestows upon me an obligation to correct you.
I am not a betting man either; but I can assure you that the message of the Prophets of God was not to worship Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe that he died for your sins in order to attain salvation. They (including Jesus) all called people to pure Monotheism; the worship and following of the one true Creator which is exactly what we Muslims do whether you like it or not.
As you are done, I am done also. I leave you with this verse from the Qur’an - And behold! GOD will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of GOD?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou was the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.”
Thank you for this discussion, have a nice day.
Thank you for such a fruitful discussion :)