FTN's reply can be found here: http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/03/responding-again-to-fake-ex-muslims.html
I have responded below:
FTN writes:
In a previous post I had begun to defend Ergun Caner against the accusation that he is a "Fake Ex Muslim" (link to my previous post). This post will have two parts. First it will address several more of the "issues" that the Fake Ex Muslim (FxM) site has identified, and second it will provide a reply to a response that FxM provided to my first post.
1. Who Converted in 1982?
In several videos that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner claims to have been saved on November 4, 1982 (or some time in 1982 - not every video specifies the 4th of November). In at least one video and in the Caner brothers' book, Emir Caner claims to have been saved on November 4, 1982. In two videos Ergun and Emir both say that Emir was saved one year after Ergun, and the Caner brother's book says the same thing. Additionally, official (or semi-official) biographies of both men apparently had indicated that they converted in 1982.
Result: It looks like Ergun Caner has mistakenly said 1982 instead of 1981 several times in regards to his own date of conversion and in various places. The inconsistency is a bit irritating, and it would be nice if the Caner brothers would clarify whether indeed Ergun was converted in 1981 or 1982 and whether the brothers were really saved a year apart.
Response
I can produce no less than 3 additional audio/video clips where Ergun Caner specifically states November 4th 1982 - one day after his 16th birthday ? not just roughly November 1982. I did not have access to these at the time of writing the article ? now I do, thus we can establish that he claims to have converted on November 4th 1982.
FTN's response is also nullified due to the reason that I have an audio clip of Ergun saying he was 17 years old when he went into that Church (i.e. he spent 4 days at the Church and his 18th birthday was on the 3rd day).
To suggest that Ergun actually converted in 1981 rather than 1982 is merely a baseless assumption, we must listen to what Ergun is saying ? he constantly says ?November 4th 1982? ? besides ? it was 1 day after his 16th birthday so it?s quite difficult to merely slip up 5 times in a row.
Not semi-official biographies ? these are words from their own OFFICIAL websites which both simultaneously stated that they converted in 1982 ? thus you can also read in their official published book ?Unveiling Islam? it also writes that Emir converted in 1982.
You don?t make the same mistake 5 times in a row ? it?s just not correct to say that Ergun mistakenly said November 4th 1982 on so many separate occasions. The most probable reason to why there is so much confusion regarding their conversion dates is because their false story which they agreed upon to stick to - got a little mixed up.
Ergun Caner won?t clarify this issue ? he knows he has been caught out.
FTN writes
2. Born in Istanbul or Stockholm?
In one video that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner claims to have been born in Istanbul, Turkey. Everywhere else, Caner claims to have been born in Stockholm, Sweden.
In the one video in question, Caner was making excuses for why he wouldn't go tan on the beach. The point he intended was that he had middle-eastern blood and consequently would tan quite a lot, which he apparently did not want. He inexplicably expressed this by claiming to have been born in Turkey.
Result: Embarrassing (also because he employed an ethnic slur connected with claiming he was born in Turkey) embellishment of his point.
Response
No, he does not claim to have been born in Stockholm, Sweden ?everywhere else?.
The only 3 occasions where I have seen him admit to have been born in Sweden is:
1) In Unveiling Islam,
2) On the John Ankerberg Show
3) In his statement released on February 25th 2010.
Other than these 3 occasions, he intentionally misleads his audience by saying he was raised in Istanbul (I have 3 clips of him saying this),
he misleads them by saying he used to watch WWF wrestling when he was in Istanbul and he thought it was real,
he misleads them by stating he has always lived in countries which are majority Muslim (last time I checked ? Sweden and America are not Muslim countries).
He intentionally misled his audience by agreeing upon an interview format about himself with Zola Levitt titled ?An Arab Christian?,
he purposely misled people by pasting an erroneous comment made about his book by Ann Coulter which says ?two Arab-Christians?,
he purposely misleads people by calling himself a Sand Monkey, Towel Head, Sand Nigger and Camel Jockey ? all of which are racist terms used against Arabs.
He purposely misleads people by saying he would wear "a Gafia" (an Arab dress which until this day of all my whole life of being in an Islamic environment, I have never seen a native Turk wear "a gafia", let alone a Turk who came from a broken family and was cared for by his Swedish mother).
He purposely misled everybody by saying ?there is not much roller skating in the sand? ? thus he is implying he has come from the desert lands of Arabia,
the only reason why he finally clarifies the issue of being born in Stockholm is because of all the controversy surrounding him ? but did he admit to lying? No, of course not, he wouldn?t do that, in fact, Ergun claims he has never intentionally misled anyone.
FTN writes3. How Old When Converted - 16 or 18?
In two videos that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner claims to have been 18 years old when he converted. However, Ergun Caner's birth date (according to his facebook page) is November 3, 1966. That would mean that on November 4, 1982, Caner would have been 16 (and he would have been 15 in 1981). Also, in a number of places (such as here) Caner's age of conversion is indicated to be 16 years old. Gahanna High School lists Ergun Caner as being in the class of 1984 (link).
Result: Embarrassing embellishment of how long Caner was a Muslim.
Response
FTN has not taken Ergun?s date of birth entirely into consideration. To say Ergun was 15 in 1981 is not entirely accurate because Ergun would have been 14 for ten full months in 1981 until his 15th birthday in November ? to say he was 15 in 1981 ignores the fact that his date of birth so late on in the year.
There are countless other accounts of Erguns age during the time of conversion ? there is even one article which suggests he was 13 when he ?converted? ? but when you click on the video upon which the article is based ? it is not longer available.
Why so much controversy regarding a simple date? ? particularly when it was so close to his birthday ? and we know he celebrated his birthdays (pictures of this are available). Clearly ? another glitch within a false story by those carrying out this fraudulence.
FTN writes:
4. Came to America at 12 or 14?
In one video that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner states that he came to American "in 1978" when he was "14 years old." Now, given Ergun's birthdate above, he would have been either 11 or 12 in 1978 (depending on the month of his arrival).
Another troubling thing (that FxM appears to have overlooked) is that Emir Fethi Caner's birthdate is apparently August 25, 1970 (according to his own website's biography). However, the Caner brothers' book states that Emir was born after the Caner family moved to America (Unveiling Islam, p. 17). Emir Caner is listed as class of 1988 for Gahanna High School (link) and Erdem is listed as class of 1986 for the same high school (link). Assuming that each of the brothers was 18 when he graduated (which is usual in the U.S.) then that means that indeed Emir was born in 1970. However, if Emir was born in the U.S. then it means that the Caners moved to America somewhere around 1968-70 (when Ergun was 2-3 years old).
Result: There are some puzzling inconsistencies. Did the Caners move in 1978 or 1968? Was Ergun a teenager or a toddler when he moved? It would be good if Dr. Caner would clarify this biographical point. My guess is that the Caner family moved to America around 1968-1970, because it seems unlikely that they would mistakenly think that the youngest Caner brother was born in the U.S. when he was not. I am puzzled about why and how Dr. Caner could get the date and his age wrong.
ResponseThe troubling issue that FTN speaks of has not been overlooked; it has already been written as a draft page but has not yet been published. I am glad that FTN has brought this issue up. I wrote the exact same thing to a YouTuber by the name of JesusFreak 28532 on the 9th of Feb 2010. You can see what I wrote here:
?I have come across another issue about Ergun and Emir Caner.
1. Ergun says he was born in 1966 and that he moved to America from Sweden with his family in 1978.
2. Emir Caner was born in 1970.
3. They both say that Emir is the only one that can become American president because he was born in America.
So the question here is if Emir was born in America in 1970 then why have they both lied by saying that they moved to America in 1978??
For me the answer is obvious Ergun wants you all to think that he had a proper Islamic upbringing until his teenage years but in reality he was merely a toddler when he went to America from Sweden during a time which his mother and father were getting a divorce.
This is why Ergun slips up during one of his speeches and clearly says that he was held back at sesame street to learn English implying that he was put back a few years into Nursery (I think you call it Kindergarten if you are in America) And we know 12 year olds are not put back to Kindergarten.?
If they moved to America in 1978 and Emir was born in 1970 IN AMERICA ? it just doesn?t add up and they are clearly being dishonest about their date of arrival from Sweden to America.
FTN should not be puzzled ? I have solved the puzzle for us already ? they are liars.
FTN writes:5. Gibberish?
In one video that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner appears to be speaking Gibberish as though it were him speaking to his father. After the initial "Isa Ibn Allah," which is a way of saying "Jesus - the Son of God," the rest does sound like gibberish. I should point out that I have limited exposure to Turkish, which is one of the languages that Dr. Caner claims to be able to speak.
FxM also points out that in the video it sounds like Ergun is saying that "Isa Ibn Allah," translates to "I believe in Jesus," which of course it does not. I don't think that's the problem at all. Calling Jesus, "Isa Ibn Allah," is a way of affirming Jesus' divinity and testifying to one's belief in Jesus. That's all Caner meant by what he said.
Result: It looks like Caner embellished his story with some pseudo-Turkish.
Response
The cheeky smile at the end affirms his deliberate attempt to mislead his audience into thinking he can speak these languages ? he can?t. A person who speaks gibberish (on two occasions) and then attempts to pass it off as a foreign tongue ? is nothing but a con-artist.FTN writes:6. Date of the First Revelation to Mohamed
In two videos that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner claims that the first revelation took place on Mohamed's 40th birthday. This is inaccurate, according to FxM, since although Mohamed was 40 years old, the revelation did not come on his birthday. FxM is quite insistent that any devout Sunni Muslim (such as Caner claims to have been) would know when the date of the first revelation is, since it is within Ramadan. It is less clear whether all devout Sunni Muslims would also know when the actual date of birth (about 6 month prior) of Mohamed was.
Result: This seems like a relatively trivial error. The main point (that Mohamed had turned 40 when he received his first "revelation") was correct.
Response
FTN has ignored the concept of Laylatul Qadr. If FTN took the time to ask any Muslim in the street ? even a Shia ? ?what is so special about Laylatul Qadr?? ? the reply will be ?it is first night which the Qur?an was revealed?.
When we Muslims fast during the month of Ramadan - the most sacred of the nights are the last 10 ? one of the reasons for this is because the night of the first revelation ? i.e. Laylatul Qadr is one of the odd nights of the last 10 ? it is usually agreed upon that is the 27th night.
The reason why we seek this night is because Laylatul Qadr is the night on which all your sins can be forgiven ? ALL MUSLIMS know this ? we seek this night during the last 10 and spend our full night in worship ? thus we can understand that the 27th of Ramadan is not 12th of Rabi al Awwal.
Things will be clear for FTN if he/she researches this, he/she will come to know that Laylatul Qadr is something which ALL MUSLIMS are aware of ? and with Ergun claiming to have been a devout Muslim - it?s quite humorous to think that he does not know even though he claims to have fasted during ?the 40 days? of Ramadan.
The emphasis of the issue is on Laylatul Qadr ? not entirely the birthday of Muhammad (pbuh) ? because to know that the first revelation took place on Laylatul Qadr ? one will also understand that it did not happen on the birthday of Muhammad (pbuh) ?two birds with one stone.
It was merely a deliberate misrepresentation on behalf of Ergun Caner in order to make the event seem unrealistic.
FTN writes:7. The 12th (Hidden) Imam
In one video that FxM has identified, Ergun Caner claims that both the Sunni and Shia Muslims believe that a caliph named Mahdi disappeared and is hidden somewhere, still alive. According to FxM, this is something believed only by the Shia Muslims. FxM is insistent that no devout Sunni Muslim could be unaware of this difference in belief between the Sunnis and the Shia Muslims.
Result: Again, this seems like a relatively trivial error. The main point of what Caner was talking about was the belief itself. Although he may (as far as I know, he did) erroneously attribute a Shia belief to the Sunni, this doesn't appear to be a significant error.
Response
This error is not relatively trivial. Ergun Caner claims to have been a devout Sunni Muslim ? he even teaches the subject of Islamic eschatology ? how can he not know? This is a more than significant error ? to brush it aside as though it is nothing giving Ergun the benefit of far too many doubts.
FTN writes:
Response to FxM's Rebuttal to my first post (link to Rebuttal)
As to 1) FxM helpfully corrects my comment about Jinn by explaining that "Jinn" can be used for both good or evil spirits. FxM argues that understanding the difference between Jinn and the Injeel is a fundamental matter of Islamic doctrine. I have no doubt that it is, but it seems that Caner simply substituted one Arabic word for another. His audience easily understood that he meant spirits, he just used the wrong Arabic word (after using the right Arabic word).
FxM raises the interesting point that Caner claims to have participated in Arabic language fellowships. This means (if it is true that Caner has participated in such) that Caner has even less of an excuse for using the wrong word.
Response
No, he did not use the right Arabic word as FTN is assuming.
Ergun was referring to the Angel which writes down what you do. The Angel is not a Jinn, the word in Arabic for Angel is ?Malaika?,
the Jinn is the ?Qareen? which follows you around and metaphorically whispers negative thoughts into your soul in order for you to commit sin.
Thus you can understand the difference between the one that ?writes down everything? and the one that doesn?t. FTN should look this up in order to verify this.
So we can understand that not only did Ergun use the wrong word, but he also attributed the wrong word to the wrong entity ? a double error.
I do not understand how somebody who grew up speaking Arabic/Turkish, was a devout Sunni Muslim until the age of 18, constantly writes books on Islam until today and consistently speaks on the subject of Islam ? can make such an error ? it?s only fair to say that Ergun is not aware of these fundamental principles because he is being dishonest about being a former devout Muslim.
I don?t doubt his half Turkish heritage ? but to come from a broken family where the cultures of his mother and father clashed when they were merely toddlers which resulted in their divorce and then to say he comes from a devout Muslim family even though he lived with his mother ? is nothing but a lie.
The reason why I know they lived with their mother and not their father is because Emir Caner stated to John Ankerberg that on the night he converted ? they went to visit their father at HIS home ?because of the divorce that had already happened?.
FTN writes:
As to 2) I am sorry to hear FxM's report that Caner brushed off this particular error (which he apparently recognized was an error, since he edited it out).
Reponse
FTN should not be sorry. FTN should rather acknowledge the fact that Ergun does not possess this intrinsic knowledge of Islam that he claims to have. FTN cannot accept the fact that Ergun Caner is a compulsive liar.
FTN writes:
As to 3) Again, I am sorry to hear what Caner's own response to this error of his was. Caner reportedly responded that it was ok for him to say that "Ramadan is 40 days ... because there is a group called the Alawite who fast for 40 days." Whether or not such a group exists, the month of Ramadan (being lunar) is necessarily either 29 or 30 days.
Response
Exactly my point. How can somebody who claims to have fasted during the month of Ramadan not know how many days are in it? It?s like going to work for 5 days a week for 18 years and then saying you went to work 15 days a week.
FTN writes:
As to 4) I agree with FxM that messing up the Shahada is an astonishingly serious error. I would love to see what (if any) explanation Caner has for this error.
Response
Ergun will give you no explanation; it is not possible for him to dodge this ? he does not know the most fundamental and basic principle of Islam.
FTN writes:
As to 5) I understand that FxM thinks that Muslims have a better understanding of what it means for Jesus to be the Messiah than Christians do. Hopefully, he's aware that we know the Muslim view to be wrong, and we are able to demonstrate the error of the Muslims from the inspired Scriptures. That's a different question, however, from whether Caner was trying to explain that Muslim beliefs about Jesus are wrong, or whether Caner was unaware that Muslims say that Jesus was the Messiah, while interpreting what it means to be the Messiah differently.
Response
FTN has put words into my mouth. I did not state that Muslims have a better understanding. I merely stated that there is a difference between the Muslims and Christians regarding the belief of Jesus (pbuh) being Messiah. This is not a theological discussion of what it truly means to be the Messiah ? to say ?we KNOW the Muslim view to be wrong? is instigating a confrontation ? I will not do this.
FTN's explanation does not justify Erguns statement of ?concerning why you do not believe in Jesus to being Messiah? ? because we do believe in Jesus (pbuh) as Messiah ? just not necessarily the same as Christians do.
FTN writes:
As to 6) I agree with FxM that it remains a funny mistake, although perhaps (since I am more sympathetic to Dr. Caner) I view my own chuckles regarding it as more of an embarrassed laugh than an amused laugh.
Response
I lost sympathy for Ergun Caner when he used the phrases Sand Monkey and Sand Nigger ? I lost sympathy for Ergun Caner when he stated that Muhammad (pbuh) is a Prophet of Hell.
The mistake is funny. Ergun tries ever so hard to put himself into the shoes of Muslims, but because he doesn?t know anything about us or Islam ? he keeps making these kinds of stupid errors.
FTN writes:
As to the Conclusion) I agree that Dr. Caner's Questions and Answers don't deal directly with the issues. I note that in the meantime Dr. Caner has provided a new statement (which deals with the issue of his having allegedly debated Shabir Ally, albeit obliquely)(link to statement).
Response
The only issue Ergun ?dealt with? was the issue of him saying he has debated Shabir Ally. Although I was the one that provided the evidence to James White ? this issue was not published on my website up until yesterday. Besides ? saying he merely misspoke is not exactly dealing with the issue ? FTN ought to read James White's rebuttal regarding this matter ? he hits the nail on the head.
I am in the process of writing a response to Ergun's statement which will be made available on the responses section of fakeexmuslims.com very soon.
FTN writes:
Conclusion to this Section
Again, I think that the evidence provided by FxM is tending to show that Caner seems to be willing to embelish his stories a bit. It's unclear what the proper resolution to his conversion timeline is - but there is a definite set of contradictions there. It is also not clear when he moved to America. It does look like he said "18" where he should have said "16" on at least two occasions. It also looks like he used gibberish to spice up a story he was telling. None of these things, of course, demonstrate that Ergun Mehmet was not previously a Muslim.
Response
There is something called embellishing stories, then there is something called lying through your teeth. As I stated before ? I have more clips of Ergun specifically saying ?November 4th 1982? whilst I also have a clip of him saying he went into the Church at the age of 17 (i.e. 2 days before his 18th birthday) ? so to suggest he mistakenly implied he was 18 during his conversion is not really a valid argument.
FTN writes:
If indeed Ergun came to America as a toddler, and if (as his book says) his parents were divorced and his primary custodian was his mother, it is quite possibly that he was not particularly well grounded in Islam, no matter how devout his father was.
I should take this opportunity to point out that the Mirele's blog article suggesting that Caner's father didn't help build the mosque in Columbus, OH seems to be flawed (link to blog article). That article notes that the Islamic Foundation building was actually constructed in the 19th century. However, the article overlooks that the most recent renovation was completed in 1984, which fits well with Caner's story regarding his father's role.
Response
Then Ergun should not put ?BUILD? in capital letters on July 2009 Q&A ? so much for ?I have never intentionally misled anyone?.
FTN writes:
Indeed, that article also shows a photograph of Caner's father (apparently from the late 1970's) in front of the at least partially converted building (there is a star and crescent above one of the windows) (link to photo). Caner's father is the man in the middle in the suit (next to what appears to be some sort of Imam). The face in the photograph corresponds to the face in Unveiling Islam, p. 14.
So, it does appear that Caner was at least raised by a relatively devout Muslim, and there does not appear to be any good reason to doubt that he remained at least formally and outwardly in the Muslim religion until he was 15 or 16.
Response
If I were to send FTN a picture of my father standing at the entrance of a farm ? that does not mean my father was a relatively good farmer.
You cannot assume from a picture of his father standing outside an Islamic Centre that his father was a relatively devout Muslim.
Do devout Muslims heavily smoke? (Ergun says his dad was a heavy smoker)
Do devout Muslims celebrate birthdays? (Ergun says they were ?Wahaabis?, they don?t celebrate birthdays).
The picture does not prove anything ? all it shows is a man standing outside an Islamic Centre ? that?s it.
Besides ? Ergun first uploaded the picture of him standing inside a room with that Imaam who is in the picture and the caption of the image stated that the Imaam was his father.
FTN fails to see any reason to doubt Ergun Caner being a Muslim ? that?s quite ignorant of the nearly 70 errors/lies that have been presented in totality (videos + website).